Chiropractor's Wife!

Chiropractor's Wife!
Have Curves In All The Right Places?

Thursday, March 31, 2011

What's Next?

I keep finding myself wanting to know what's next?
While the voice of reason whispers "be patient" and "give it time" all I continue to discover is that in this field the reality, is how it is going to be for a long, long time is how it is now. I can discover that now and nudge my husband to think of what he would like to do next and put a check mark next to "Be a Chiropractor" moving on or we can waste 10 years hoping things improve and be that much more behind any career/degree change possibilities. Time is precious and time is Money.
Today I wrote the Huffington Post as they are conducting an ongoing investigation into students being in so much debt these days! I also came across this in the Chiro Talk forum:
Hi everybody I have been a practicing chiro in salt lake city for 6 years now. I have known for quite some time that I will never make it as a chiropractor. It only took living below the poverty line the entire 6 years as well as a bankruptcy, “manipulative” management groups and bosses with questionable billing tactics to wake me up. When I was in school I would hear how there are different types of chiropractors, ones who excelled at school but then later failed in practice and ones who struggled at school but are later very successful. Anyway I was the guy who was a presidential scholar, graduated magna cum laude and who fell flat on his face when I went into practice. It is important to mention that I never once cheated in school or looked at old exams as most of my class did. I figured if I could do well in school by my own merits then why couldn’t I do well in practice. The problem is now I am directly competing with all of those people that have questionable morals. Chiropractic is doomed and it is nobodies fault but the professions. I don’t see it lasting more than 20 years from now, especially with the DPT’s coming online to provide manipulation. I for one don’t really have that much of a problem with delivering chiropractic. It has worked great for me with my debilitating low back pain and headaches as well as for many of my patients. Chiropractic is more than just an expensive aspirin. Manipulation often works when anti-inflammatories or PT doesn’t, and it obviously has a valuable place in health care. On the other hand I don’t buy into all of the crap about subluxation etc, and I appreciate what this site stands for. All that said I am still living below the poverty line especially now that I have 4 kids, and I know it is not going to get any better. The reality is that I know I need to leave the profession but I don’t know what I would go into or if it is even possible to go back to school with all of my student loans (they are up to $160,000 from $140,000 when I graduated as I haven’t been able to afford a single payment on them). I have been considering going into medicine in particular radiology or pathology. I don’t have any reservations about the school or curriculum it is more a matter if I want to commit the time and if I want more dept. I also did very well in chemistry but I would have to start over for this and eventually work up to a doctorate to be able to pay off my loans. Please if you are a student looking at chiropractic DON’T go into it. This my best year for collections since I graduated 6 years ago. Want to take a guess at what I made? A whopping $43,000 with 4 kids, no retirement, no insurance, no house and no hope of it getting better. This is the reality of chiropractic. The writing was on the wall before I went to school I heard stories of somebody that went through school to become a chiropractor that was no longer practicing, but I brushed it off as nothing and gave the schools the benefit of the doubt. All of my former class mates are in the same position that I am in and I guarantee things are going to get worse for all of us when the loans can longer be in forbearance and start defaulting. Any words of advice or encouragement would be greatly appreciated. I know I am not getting any younger and that I now have a family, but at the same time I am not going anywhere and things are only going to get worse so I have to make a decision now. Thanks Greg

His post was titled "PLEASE HELP!" Although it is over a year old I was glowing because it sounded like my husband wrote it! The difference? My husband has only been out of school going on 3 years! There is still hope for us! So, what's next? Accounting? PA? Neurology??
You know, he makes a wonderful teacher/lecturer. Today we applied for a couple more jobs at the University of Utah. Our thoughts are that he can make decent wages and get free tuition. Then, no matter what is required he can avoid more loans being drawn out! We purged the chiropractic from the application as much as possible. We'll see how it goes!

Wednesday, March 30, 2011

Doctor Wanna Be

What's nice about 3 graduating classes a year is you get to keep tabs on each other post graduation easier. A friend of ours who is about 10 years older than us decided to be a chiropractor after years of business management being his background. He began with my husband but fell behind which can easily happen if you fail any classes. Also, just in case you forgot, if passing every class isn't enough they have to master and pass a series of 4 national exams that are expensive. This gentleman graduated and was not able to pass one of the parts of the national exams. In fact, right now he is waiting to hear results of the one part that he has taken several times so that he can FINALLY get to do what my husband has been doing for almost 3 years. The tests themselves are over a $1,000 and they make you wait 6 months to take it and retake it and retake it potentially. In the mean time, to make a living he is pulling in about 50K a year managing a restaurant near the school. I asked him how he landed such a sweet job and he said, "I took all signs of Doctor and Chiropractic completely off my resume." I told him he may not want to quit his day job right away!!

The smartest guy in Brads graduating class went on to associate and is still not pulling in sustainable income! If it weren't for his wife, a nurse working for a major auto manufacturer's occupational health department bringing in close to 80K a year herself they would be broke. I don't know about her, but I didn't sign up for that! I don't think our husbands did either! We were under the false impression that it was a growing industry and gaining popularity and such to justify paying so much time, and money to become a chiropractor! I will make sure on our next round of job applications we purge the term chiropractor off completely! 50K a year is better than 20K!

Wednesday, March 23, 2011

The B Word

Let me take you back to November 2010. This was the first month our chiropractic business didn't have enough to pay its own bills in the 25 months we had been at the helm! Having never missed a payment of any type in over 30 years of life we found ourselves in the office of a local attorney for advice. We told him we just want out of the business and we anticipate not being able to pay our bills for December. He introduced Bankruptcy to us and went into a beautiful history lesson about the Revolutionary war in the USA being fought about bankruptcy rights and that it is one of the main factors in the fight for freedom we seldom hear about. That all sounded fine and good but I wanted to know more! What is the process? What is the reality of that road should we take it? How much would it be? He said $1500 which we got over to him in cash right away and obeyed his direction to stop paying our bills. He even said we would file after we got a tax return so we could keep it and admonished us to spend it quick and on things like rent, and utilities. We got the tax return the first week of Feb and had easily spent it on car repairs and rent and the accountant and a few smaller debts we owed. What from the attorney? Crickets. I'll spare you the details which invololve another $400.
I called a boyfriend of mine who has been through bankruptcy once upon a time without legal representation. I was fired up to spend the day researching the process in my state. To my utter delight there is step by step instructions, free legal help, and the best part to consider:
If you do not have any assets (valuable property that is not exempt such as a second car, second house, newer electronics) you are judgment proof. This means that even if a creditor gets a judgment against you for the amount you owe, they have nothing they can take from you to satisfy that judgment. Therefore, you can just ignore the creditors and not pay. If you choose to do this you can send stop annoying phone call letter to the collection agencies that should help reduce the number of harassing phone calls you receive. However, creditors can still call between 8:00am and 9:00pm but only to notify you they are seeking other remedies. This is not a good option for someone who is temporarily unemployed or will soon be inheriting any valuable asset, because once you start receiving pay or assets the creditor will then be able to enforce the judgment they have against you by garnishing your pay or taking your newly acquired assets. These debts will still be reported on your credit report for up to seven years. The fact that you filed for bankruptcy cannot remain on your credit report for more than ten years.

Needless to say, according to all resources even the fees for the filing and classes can be waived if a family of 4 like we are makes below $33,074. We have made below that amount as a family my entire marriage. So the likely hood of that changing in the next 5-10 years is, well, let me check my magic 8 ball... : "outlook likely"
I guess the whole "we have nothing to lose" phrase is more true than we ever expected. I have all my paperwork and ducks in a row to proceed with bankruptcy filing Monday. Luckily I will hit a once a month bankruptcy pow wow at the Main Salt Lake Library where lawyers will be there to counsel me for free and check my paperwork. Half of me is thinking don't bother with the bankruptcy. It would feel much like it has for the last 90 days. Phone calls, "we don't have anything", negotiations, the end.
At the admonishment of David who commented yesterday I asked my Chiro King what he wants to be when he grows up. Essentially, what's next? He said he really likes the nutrition aspect and has a passion and niche with it. Good, we'll stay the corse for now. I agree Standard Process has been such an impressive company to be associated with. Companies like it are hard to find. So far, there has NEVER been a patient with nutritional deficiencies who hasn't benefited from ingesting their whole food nutrition. From seed to supplement and only dispensed through healthcare licensed professionals it is nutrition that even I depend on. As much as I eat, without it, I am truly starving to death!

Today, instead of hating chiropractic profession flaws, I hate lawyers! I doubt we'll EVER get our $1500 back. I could use that for groceries!

OH BOY! You MUST check this out and act if you are still buried unjustly under student loans!

We may be able to get rid of the student loans for good. The snow ball of debt vs income potential has gotten so big that we may see real reform to stop the madness!!!

Monday, March 21, 2011

Mo Money, Mo Money $$

I decided today for the first time that my husband needs to make more money. Not in the winey wife way but in the, HEY you REALLY need to make more money! You went to a bunch of school and it wasn't free!

Today he saw two patients but I am not jumping for joy. In private practice we saw on average 10 a day so it means nothing. I spent some time in his room today hanging his awards, diplomas, recognitions, and some posters. His room looks great and he is ready to be a chiropractor full time! It is funny how we aren't yet motivated to blanket the county with coupons and information! BUt I am almost there. I miss him in the evenings and I know he hates his hospital pee on job. I also hate the words "declined" and "insufficient funds".

Alternatives are me working again so he can focus on chiropractic practice building or finding a better job where his income matches his education qualifications even if it isn't in the chiropractic field. I have been searching for him since he is unable to do so with his current schedule. Hey, it truly is my pleasure! I am also good at it. In my search it seems the VA extended decent jobs to chiropractors in 2004 but there seems to be no evidence of this! Which means the guys who landed those jobs are staying put! There are lots of options, even in Utah for him to bring in 90+K if he were a MD or DO. In fact, as I research the federal governments site altogether they don't even acknowledge Physician's being chiropractors. Its a strange world when the document on his wall issued by the state reads "Chiropractic Physician" and he is required to have mal-practice insurance and pays just as much for the training to exam, diagnose, and treat and isn't even acknowledged. I can't find any 'real' chiropractic employment. He is strictly commission.

We live by an exquisite Intermountain Healthcare facility named TOSH which is an orthopedic specialty hospital. I find it rather odd that they don't employ chiropractors at this point. I think I am finally seeing the reality for how it really is. You become a chiropractor, you are a sucker!!! So what now? Focus on his bachelors criteria and education. Oh, alright, it is in life science. Try as I might I can't seem to find him anything suitable. This means I have to make more friends. Friends I can either grow his practice by associating with, or friends who may consider an on staff chiropractor for their corporation for their employees and selves. Its a business idea I came up with long ago!

It would be presented in such a way that they see the value in having on site chiropractors to decrease their ill calls, and offer employees relief! I could contract penniless chiros to staff different sites. It could be great in occupational health departments in various companies across the state.

We went to see a pal in Salt Lake who my husband went to a retreat with in Colorado. At this retreat they were presented with incorporating a program called Creating Wellness into their private practice. My husband wanted to do it but as a general marital rule would not sign up without discussing it with me seeing how it comes with a $20K price tag! They did not get our sale but did get this pals we visited. It has been 2 years since that retreat and we followed up to see if Creating Wellness was a money making opportunity that we may have regretted not buying. To my delight, it is "a financial burden" and has not been what he had hoped it would be. I can't say for sure but I think my husband loves me a little bit more whenever he thinks about me blocking that transaction. I make a hot Bad Cop in these cases!

My husband has been looking in to going back to school but it just seems absurd! Truly absurd. Not only can we NOT afford it, his lifetime max is such that whatever he chooses he will exhaust it. A PHD in Neurology and/or Masters in {{{fill in the blank}}} requires so much more than we ever expected after all he's been through. If Shakespeare were only alive today, it would make a remarkably fantastic tragedy!

Thursday, March 17, 2011

I figured out the problem!

Okay, THE problem is the fact that the chiropractic profession has evolved quicker than society can ever possibly catch up to! Think about it! Most chiropractors didn't need a Bachelors degree and could finish school through the 80s for around $40k TOTAL. They got into the world and worked it! They established themselves and still exist today! We purchased our practice from a class of 98' grad from Palmer. He didn't have the standard of education either although his price tag was over $100K like the rest of us! Yet ALL of these folks are licensed "physicians" in the field.
It is crystal clear to those of us graduating in the year 2000+ or even 2005+ that we paid more and were put through more rigorous training than the hoards of docs prior! It's no mystery to me that the public is so confused. Even at this very moment with a chiropractor on every corner, you are dealing with fruits and vegetables not apples to apples! What I mean is from a clinical standpoint in practice my husband was trained to diagnose, examen, treat, and read x-rays. He was taught to be a doctor. So when an unsuspecting 40+ year old walks in they don't want and exam, they don't want a lesson that they should be changing their lifestyle, they just want to get cracked and they want to pay you 80s prices for it!
I am so smart. As GI Joe says, "Knowing is half the battle!"

Tuesday, March 15, 2011

Student Loans

I hate the price of chiropractic school vs what one makes when they graduate. It is such a scam. I just got a letter from my husbands former school acknowledging we've missed some payments on one of their federal loans. Odd thing is we consolidated our federal loans 2 years ago! I don't think we would have missed this if it were legitimate. I have half a mind to write them a well written letter suggesting that they over looked a scholarship in the exact amount we owe. Besides, their fees are bogus. The price of school turns Logan College of Chiropractic into more of a pimp than a respectable institution for higher learning! I feel like hiring someone to investigate our schooling fees and money exchanged to expose their immoral practices. I really feel they take advantage of students! I feel like if we were more involved in the process from start to finish rather than, "Mr/Ms Chiropractic Student, please report to financial aide to sign this form." It's just crazy. Believe me, I get ripped off all the time but to contemplate the scale of this is immoral! What can I do? Nothing. Just blog about it.

IN my time of angst I read these articles to justify it!

Monday, March 14, 2011


Reflecting today about the handful of trades we engaged while in business made me laugh. Our first trades were with a guy who is quite a character who warned us about Babylon in copies of elaborate DVDs! We never had the heart to charge him. He was always so entertaining and engaging when it came to current events and warning us of the end of the world. We traded him for these DVDs and fresh farmed eggs. Needless to say we never got our fair share but we had no regrets!
My second main trade experience was a local quilter. Our clinic was right next to a popular quilt shop and I was always feeling like I was missing out on something watching people come and go from that busy shop! A patient owned a small quilting business and offered to trade in November to make a couple twin quilts and a queen that I boasted would be perfect Christmas presents for our little family. She said if we buy the material she'll make it happen. I bought the material that very day letting the kiddos pick out their own! I speant $130 on material and dropped it off to her home. She frequented our clinic weekly sometimes multiple times a week. Christmas came and went. Mothers day was greeted with my husband and my quilt completed and beautiful. I pressed her for my daughters for the end of April for her birthday. My sons trickled in I recall around September or October. Finally it was over yet she was still coming in for free 3 times while I asked for an invoice. She was getting student rates $15 an adjustment because her husband was a professor at BYU. She insisted on her statement first and I printed it out but let her know I would be adjusting the adjustment prices based on market rates if she brought me a bloviated invoice. I didn't know but she was very upset with me. Scared of me almost. She came back shaking and printed off online quilts and their prices and the bill was $1,300. My invoice to her was I believe in the $900 ballpark but that was with $15 adjustments. Instead of printing her off the national chiropractic average adjustment price being in the $65 ballpark I just let he be upset and told her we are all even and square and I let her vomit her unappreciation for my treatment of her! Wow.
I loved our almost trade with an attorney who was offering $200 an hour consulting for adjustments for him and his family. I very nicely let him know we have a no trade policy because so many screw us. He offered to sue them!! He also insisted any trade we do with him needs to be off the books. Oh yes, sounds so wonderful. We declined and he left relenting to my husband eye to eye that he'll leave and let us "sort it out." Which translated to, "Hey Doc, control your wife! She is too clever and can tell I am a snake trying to take advantage of you and I am not use to her kind in these parts!"
My favorite was when my husband was manning the office solo and traded a case of expired toothpaste for an adjustment or two for a family. Yes, toothpaste.
Today let me also make mention that my husband woke up early, drove and hour south to his old high school so he can do a small presentation to his little cousins class earning her 50 bonus points. He also had a new patient at 1pm. Finally! He is a dedicated chiropractor and I applaud his efforts to honor his profession even in the midst of bankrupcy!

Friday, March 4, 2011

Want to be a Doctor of Chiropractic?

"I am a recent graduate of a chiropractic school in 2006. I had to switch professions because the field of chiropractic is so bad right now. I would not recommend anyone go into this field. US News now rates chiropractic as one of the most over-rated careers. In the past 20 years or so, many people entered the field of chiropractic because it was rated one of highest paying careers with the most job satisfaction. That is not true anymore. The 1980s were a very good financial time for all medical providers because insurance re-inbursement rates were so high. Chiropractors are just getting by on insurance scraps now (save for good auto-insurance, and this is beginning to change in many states).

The average salary for a new chiropractor is between $30-36K. I definitely found this to be the case. When I went job hunting, no one would offer more than $3K a month as a base salary. Bonus incentives are included in these contracts, but they can be very difficult to achieve. The contracts I received were designed so that I could not get a bonus very easily. Most new associate chiropractors are sent to do marketing jobs for established chiropractors. This includes doing spinal screenings at malls, health fairs, conventions, grocery stores, etc. Chiropractors have to work very hard to market for new patients. There is a gross over-supply of chiropractors right now in most major cities. Very few people find job offers that pay more than $30-36K a year. Usually the only chiropractic associate jobs that pay more are the ones that specialize in auto-accidents and Worker's compensation claims. From personal experience, the field of personal injury can be a VERY dirty business. The man that offered me my first job just had his license suspended for illegal telemarketing to auto-accident victims (they buy their telephone numbers from police reports, which are a public record).

Since chiropractor tuition is expensive (it costs around $150K to become a chiropractor) and the average salaries of new graduates are only a little over 30K, it will become very difficult to ever pay these loans off. There are only a couple other options for a new chiropractor. One is to open a new practice, and the other is to lease space in an existing practice. Since it is exorbitantly expensive to open a new practice, many new chiropractors choose to start their own business inside of an existing practice. Chiropractic graduates know that associateships just don't pay well enough, so they try to set up their own practices with very little real world clinical or business experience. In my graduating class, half of the class or more tried to set up their own practice. Oddly enough, most of these people tried to set up their practice in the city they graduated from because they did not want to relocate. I am sure you can see the problem with a large chunk of the graduating class all trying to set up their own new business in the same city. This cycle happens year after year after year, so the oversupply of chiropractors never diminishes.

I can assure you that a few years after graduation, a large portion of my fellow graduates have already gone out of business or are very close to drying up. This is a very difficult situation to be in, as new businesses of all kinds have a high failure rate. But why take up so many student loans just to be in a risky business proposition? The field of chiropractic has the highest student loan default rate of any health profession, and it is going to get much, much worse very soon (since insurance re-imbursement rates have fallen so low). Many chiropractors have been devastated by their decision to go to chiropractic school. The number of people who are barely scraping by in chiropractic is much, much higher than the number of people who were able to make a six-figure income.

Notice that I have not once brought up the validity or efficacy of chiropractic. That is a completely different topic and subject of debate. However, I will say that the internal problems of chiropractic is what is leading to chiropractic being such a difficult field to practice in. I have purely written this post on the economic prospects of being a chiropractor for a prospective medical student. Don't do it.

The admission standards for chiropractic school are non-existant. There are no admission interviews, and a student can get accepted with a 2.5 GPA. While chiropractors take many of the same classes as M.D.s, the scope and difficulty of their classes does not even remotely compare (except for anatomy, which chiropractors have good training in). Chiropractic schools have to have such low standards because the schools are run completely on loan money. They need the influx of students to keep the schools in business. Enrollment at chiropractic schools has been down, so the admission standards have been lowered. Would you want to go to a school with this kind of brain drain? Finally, I do want to mention that I did have some very bright classmates. Some of my classmates did have 4.0 GPAs and entered chiropractic because they were passionate about it. However, these exceptional students are greatly outnumbered by the students who do not care about academics. There is a saying in chiropractic schools that 'Ds and Cs make a D.C.' There is actually some truth to this statement.

With the new doctorate in Physical Therapy, physical therapists are beginning to market for much of the same patient base as chiropractors. Doctors in Physical Therapy are also activing lobbying to gave rights to perform physical manipulation like chiropractors do. If you are interested in chiropractic, avoid it all costs and become an osteopath or a doctor in physical therapy.

If anyone has actually read this far I have posted another similar prospective from a different chiropractic graduate. He actually has had a more difficult time than even I did. Read his words and heed them carefully.

The Truth from a new-grad Chiropractor

Here is the absolute bottom line for those of you searching information on the internet and trying to decide whether or not you want to become a chiropractor. I graduated in 2008 with $150,000 in student debt from Parker College in Dallas, TX. Sounds like a lot, huh? That 150K is primary, no interest accounted for. Parker is now the most EXPENSIVE chiropractic college in the nation.

After all that time (you'll spend anywhere from 3 to 4 years in undergrad and then at least 3 years for chiropractic school) and all that amounting debt (gaining interest, too!) So, you must be thinking I've got an incredible job and everything is peachy-keen, right? I landed a job right before graduation with a chiropractor who's respected as one of the most efficient and effective Musculoskeletal clinicians in the state.

My pay? $26,000 per year. The only benefit is I don't have to go through the humiliation of spinal screenings or suckering people into becoming patients at the local Big Lots. Of course there are better jobs out there, even chiropractic jobs, but the average is about 32,000 per year for new graduates. If you aren't making what you spent on school every year, you made a POOR INVESTMENT, and the vast majority of chiropractors don't make 150K, even after decades of experience.

I could have just saved the time and money I spent on schooling and gone as a high-school graduate to work at Home Depot and I would STILL be making more. I feel humiliated, mislead, and bitter EVERY DAY. My chiropractic prospects are very limited despite just entering the medical work force. My wife and I have a new baby and I can't provide to pay for housing and food, so we have almost $10,000 in credit card debt, without hope of being able to pay it off anytime soon. The only way to make any amount of money in chiropractic is to open your own practice and what bank would loan money to a young person with $150K in debt??? If you really like manipulation, go to DO school or PT school... Please, please, please stay away from chiropractic school. It will ruin your life."

Ruin is a harsh word but whoever authored this post in a forum I came across doing some research is a snippit of the harsh reality that it is to be a successful graduate of a rather grueling and expensive career path! THIS IS REALITY! My husband, of who I gave my full support, ignored these types of things like thousands of eager new admits continue to do 3 times a year in colleges all across the country!! It is disgusting. It does potentially ruin ones life because these noble students almost max out their student borrowing capabilities, are shunned by mainstream health care providers as step children of the industry, and are last to be interviewed for alternative venues to share their thorough knowledge in education circles being subject to entry level jobs just to provide themselves with the basic necessities of life! I know many, many marriages don't survive the extensive schooling let alone the aftermath that is the harsh reality that follows! In the words of the great Tammy Wynette, "Stand by your man" because a good marriage beats the alternative!!


My husband accidentally left his lunch at home so the kids and I took it to him at 6pm and joined him as well for his half of an hour lunch. The hospital is breathtakingly beautiful. President Obama himself has roamed its halls and called it the pilot for health care standards across the country. The nature of my husbands duties there require him to dress like a surgeon. Needless to say, he is so freakin hot! (Which has less to do with what he is wearing and more to do with my recent discovery of Big Love Season 1 almost completed and the fact that I am in love with our monogamy and my possession of him and him alone being ALL MINE to devour despite the cameras in the elevators and the kiddos in tow!) He also gets looks from patrons of respect and long stares. It feels good, after all, he has worked as hard and could have been a surgeon had he the stomach for it. He and I both know he could be in his surgical residency right now in some obscure middle American town constantly trying to win me over for the lack his presence. Me inebriating myself with shopping therapy and on some anti-depressant or at the worst one of us seeing other people on the side to satisfy the void that such a path can carve! The horrible day dream is broken when the door of the doctors lounge opening spills out 3 younger souls who I quickly pin down as young residence who get the privilege to eat separate from the "little" people surrounded in luxury and amply stocked with free food, the finest the hospital offers. Watching them make their way across the cafeteria with their black colored stethoscope's draped around their necks like peacocks induces a warm feeling that starts in the pit of my stomach and bubbles up to a giant lump in my throat. Invisible physicians are the best way to describe the modern chiropractor. They are hidden diamonds in the rough only a fraction of a fraction of the population ever discover. I am sick and on the verge of tears to think that he has to work for peanuts to provide for us deprived of the privileges that such a discipline demands! I want to stand on a stool in Time Square and tell the truth, but know that I could never handle the scrutiny, the ignorance, mocking chides, and the prevailing misconceptions that keep this profession in its rightful place. That place being irritating goo on the bottom of societies shoe! He has applied to some more teaching jobs at the local community college. I doubt they will entertain his application for more than 30 seconds once they see the words "chiropractic." If they only knew......